Shannon Ross: 0:06

What's good, people? My name is Shannon Ross, and this is All In Wisconsin, a podcast about and for safety and justice efforts in Wisconsin, and why you, no matter who you are, should care. All In Wisconsin is done in partnership with the Wisconsin Decarceration Platform and the community. The name of this podcast is All In Wisconsin because all of us involved in re entry and Reform and decarceration efforts in Wisconsin are in this together with the goal of more holistic communities and a justice system more worthy of that name. And we are all in with our commitment. As for me, I am just a dreamer who knows there is a better way and is devoted to reaching out and holding on even when it is uncomfortable. Because connections and empathy are the foundations of true safety and justice. I spent 17 years in the Wisconsin prison system, from the age of 19 to 36, where I acquired my bachelor's degree and wrote a variety of things, some published locally and nationally. I also founded a non profit, which I still run, called The Community. For more about our work, visit our website at thecommunitynow. us or click the link in the description below. I am also a graduate student at the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee for the Sustainable Peacebuilding Program, a community fellow with the Wisconsin Decarceration Platform, a co instructor at Milwaukee School of Engineering and Marquette's Education Preparedness Program, a partner at Reentry Rising MKE, a member of Unlock Higher Ed, and a mentor at Prisons to Professionals. This week, we spoke to Dielo Orr, who is one of the absolute best humans I have ever met in my life. And as with our other interviews with people in prison, the audio is lesser quality than normal. Let's get to it. My name is D'Alo Orr, number 304958, state issue. This is my first incarceration. I've never been in trouble a day of my life. I don't even have a juvenile. Um, I've been incarcerated now since, uh, 1994. I was sentenced in 1995 of December. And, uh, I was convicted of felony party to felony murder, armed robbery and attempted armed robbery. I was sentenced to 60 60 years plus 40 plus 20 running consecutive, which means that I'm incarcerated for 120 years. Um, I'm now, like I said, uh, at my 25th, going on my 26th year of incarceration. Um, I came from a maximum institution and worked my way down to a medium institution. Um, and during the course of that, uh, incarceration, I'm looking at these questions. My state of mind when I entered prison was that I was scared and I was angry. My state now is I'm positive, I'm mature, and I'm sure. I'm positive because I have a new outlook on life. I'm mature because I was mindful of my failures and faults and learned from them and I practiced them. I'm sure because I acquired knowledge and wisdom I needed to become the man that I am while I'm incarcerated. Thank you. I'm mature, and I'm sure because my self knowledge that I have obtained only came from me. Because the prison system, as I said before, I was sentenced to 120 years. So, my M. R. date is 2175. So, M. R. During my incarceration, when I had, uh, issues, uh, uh, such as, I used to drink and get in fights because I was angry of being tricked into accepting this plea deal that I do have. And then thrown into a, a system such as Green Bay, which is called Gladiator School, I had to come up with the mentality of how am I going to survive something that I've never been involved in, that I was afraid of. And that was my coping mechanism. And my coping mechanism was, when I observed that I had an issue with had issue with anger when I reached out for help. The only thing I was told was, well, sir, your paperwork shows other than properly placed attorney calls may be monitored and recorded. Your paperwork shows your in Mars is 21 75. So you don't meet the criteria to take any program. So their solution was for me was right a ticket and throw him in the hole. Then We catch him making hoots or drinking because he can't get AODA because of his MR date. Try to ticket throw him in a hole. He can have angry outbursts, gets into fights, or, or, or such as that nature. Uh, he can't take it into management because his MR date is 2021 75, so he can't do that. Try to ticket throw him in a hole. That was their solution. So I came to a point in my life while I was incarcerated, 2004, 2004, I was doing my 4th time in segregation, and during my 4th time in segregation, I realized I gotta change, man. I changed for the simple fact is, the self inflicted pain that I was putting upon myself. was due to myself. I had to stop blaming others. I had to look within and say I'm here because I'm in sick because of what I did. Now, true enough, I was still upset because I was tricked to accept the deal that got me locked up. But at that point in time, I was locked up and locked up in sick. And I owe this to a certain individual who was in sick with me. His name is Munson, that's his last name. So why in SIG, he kept coming to me with the gospel, with the Bible. Giving me positive words that he got from scripture. But my time in SIG, I didn't want to hear that. Because I felt as though God let me down, because look where I'm at. Okay, so, during that time, my incarceration, that I entered Green Bay, February of 1996, I was having a reoccurring dream. And in this dream, I kept hearing someone scream for help. And the scream for help was like someone in dire need, someone who's about to, about to die, about to perish. But, at that point in time, my mind stick was, whenever I had that dream, I remember saying to myself in that dream, I wish they'd shut up, whoever this is, you know what I mean? I'll wake up, go about my day. So it wasn't until I had that dream started in 1996, it wasn't until in 2004, I was in segregation, next door to Brother Munson, He was hitting me with positive words about how I need to change because I was the oldest man in segregation. I was 33 years old, and being 33, I'm in there leading cats and insects to wild out, and I'm in control of them, telling them to do this, do that, and they was doing it. So I was leading them in a negative way. So this particular night, I was in bed, and this reoccurring dream came. And this time, when the dream came, I said, whoever it is, I'm gonna go and help whoever that is because I'm tired of this dream, whatever this is. So this dream is specifically 2004. I'm walking on the beach. There goes someone screaming for help that death scream and I see a beach house. I go into the beach house as I get in the beach house. I'm in the front room and I hear the screaming again. This time it's in the bathroom. So I go into the bathroom, you'll see it. I pull the shower curtains back and someone screaming help that died that died. Scream for help. I don't see it. So I turn around, I see a mirror. So I go up to the mirror and, and swear to God, Ross, I see my face and my eyes are bucked out. And, and, and as I look, I see my lips moving and I concentrate and I see my lips moving that the person who was screaming for help was myself. So when I seen that, I jumped up, I woke up, I'm like, man, what was that? And I'm sweating in bed and next door, brother Munson is banging on the wall, asking me, am I all right? Am I all right? So I come to the door. I said, what's up? He said, you all right? I said, yeah. I said, why? He said, man, because I heard you in there screaming for help. And then that's when I told him, I said, brother, I told him about the dream. And he was like, yeah. See, that's God calling you, brother. That's God calling you. All that pain and anger you have, you have to let it go. Your inner soul is screaming out for help. So I gave my life to Christ right then and there, 2004. I prayed to him. I said, listen, if there's a better way than what I'm doing right now, and you can give it to me, then I need it. Because I'm already in hell. Cause I feel as though prison, the next step from prison, is death. If you can't better yourself in this stage, then, then uh, you're gonna go deeper and seek deeper into that pit. So, when I prayed and gave my life to Christ, there was two books. I wanted a Bible, but I was blessed with two books that prepared me for, uh, what was to come. One was Battlefield for the Mind, and the second one was a House of Healing. I got those two books and read those two And those two books is what entered into my life were my self help tools that I needed to help save me because the prison system wasn't designed to help me. Men such as me under the old law, old new law, it's designed, it's not designed to help us. They only look at your MR date to determine if they're going to put you in a program. If they're going to give you the help that you need while you're in prison. And I feel as though how they got it structured. is really as backwards. Pardon my language. If you want a guy to change, you want him to anything productive in the community, you have the perfect environment to do it. So if you have a man who has anger issues, why give them anger management six months before his release? His training ground is society. If you give it to him, when he entered, he got two or three years. His training ground is now a protected environment, which is prison for that man to fall, get up, fall, get up, learn. Okay. No, you want to give him a program six months before he gets released. Then when you give it to him, you want to put them out in the street. So now he can exercise tools that he hasn't, he's still a virgin too. So when he slips up, what did they do? They revocate him and lock them back up. When you need to give them programs as they come into the institution, where this is their training ground, this is a practice ground. You know what I mean? And in doing that, when they step out in society, they can have, Ah, I remember when I behaved this way. I remember when I acted this way. I remember when I thought this way, because I kept bumping my head in my training ground, which is the prison system. I don't want to go back there. Versus giving them a program as a virgin, stepping out on the street, and then they're exercising and using training that's new to them. That they gonna slip and fall because they don't have their maturity. They don't have their understanding of what it is. They don't know how to fully develop it and use it. But being in prison, giving them the programs, as they enter, now this is their training ground, their practice ground. Now they become mature in it so they can slip and fall while they're here. And only repercussions is they may get a condom report, they may lose a little race, they may do whatever. But out there on the street, the repercussions is, soon as you slip and fall, okay, lock them up. All calls other than properly placed attorney calls may be monitored and recorded. Okay, and, and, and uh, what made me change is that I got tired of self inflictive calls. wounds to myself because the only person I was hurting in this in prison was myself with my anger. As you know, Ross, I'm sitting up there. The old adage is I got this wood, I got it on fire and I'm holding it and I'm waiting for my enemy to come. So while I'm waiting for my enemy to come, I'm burning myself. I'm burning myself. I'm not. So the person I'm trying to get they ain't even here yet. They ain't even no attention, but I'm standing there holding. Burning myself. So I had to sit there and accept the fact that the only change that's gonna change with me is that I have to do it.'cause the prison ain't the prison, the prison system ain't gonna help me. It's up to me. And that's what I had to do and that's what I did. And I thank God for that. And I praise God for that because I was there all different information by going to when I, when I got out, when I got outta Seg, my second day outta seg me and this gentleman, his name is Rudy, you know Rudy's out there right now. He's a, he's a well-known author. As a matter of fact, I've seen him on, on PBS giving an interview with that Fitzgerald woman about black, uh, uh, why race matters. I'm in a library, 2004, he's in there. I'm talking to him. And he see me grab a psychology book, a sign language book, and then I grab another self help book on depression. He's like, what you doing with that? I said, bro, this is knowledge that set me free. He said, what? He said, man. And he just snatched up a book on how to be an author. He's And he's standing right there with me, and I'm like, man, that's wonderful. He said, well, you know, because he was doing music, he was already doing books already, man. But now he's snapped up more books, I guess, from example of seeing me grab stuff. And I grabbed it, why ain't it with him? And that's how I obtained all the knowledge that I have, was that my freedom was only going to come from me. I can't rely on the prison system, because it's not designed for me. I'm looking at, uh, up right now, I think Rudy Bankston is his name. Yep. Uh, I see, yeah, on Facebook, I see some stuff he's in. So, uh, he's been coming across my platform a little bit. I'm not really familiar with him, but I've seen him, uh, on a lot of positive platforms. So, I'm sure I'm gonna pay him some time. And that you gave him an endorsement, that's, that's enough for me to try and reach out. So, I usually, I'm gonna go with whatever you say, because I, I definitely have immense trust in your judgment on people. So, what do you say to, and I'm sure you've encountered this before, A number of us who have done time in the hole and I talk about who, how, like, personally, I only did 42 days max in the hole. I did daily time compared to a number of other people I know who experienced it and it had a big impact on them changing their life around. But then that kind of begs the question from people out there, Oh, what segregation must work then? It must, you know, be exactly what people should be going through to get their life together. If all these success stories had their epiphanies. So what do you, do you recalibrate, or what do you say to that? Well, to that I would say the whole does not work. Uh, for the simple fact is, at that point in time when they were using segregation, they were using segregation as a punishment method. And punishing an individual who has, uh, uh, uh, issues, anger issues, uh, alcoholic issues, drug issues, That, that was torture. When, when here it is, you have programs that can help individuals with these needs and with these problems at that particular point in time, but instead of giving it to them, you tell them, look, well, because of your MR date, you can't take this program. I look at it as, here it is, a person with cancer. You know he got cancer. You have a treatment for cancer, but you tell them, well, you ain't suffered long enough, so you're going to stick with it. Because, see, while before I went to segregation, I went and tried to sign up for anger management, you know. I tried to sign up for CGIP, which is helping with criminal thinking, you know. I tried to sign up to take the AODA. Their answer was, well, because of your MR, instead of this particular point in time, well, you can't take this program. So if their solution is you get caught doing anything that you need help with, well we just give you a condom report and throw you in a hole. Somebody get in a fight, he got anger issues, but you don't want to give him the program because you want him to wait for a year or two before he get out to take the program? It's absolutely absurd. It's absolutely ridiculous. It's something that I think those of us who have gone through the system, it stands out so powerfully, like the way they operate. And part of it, you know, I'll give the DOC a little bit of credit. Uh, not like a break because they have limited resources. Now, they don't, they can't, they can't offer every program to everybody all the time. They can't hire all the people that would be. But there are definitely things that can be done to, you know, make it a lot more in line with addressing a person the second they get into the prison system. I know that's, that's really what we're trying to do with the community now is add resources and encouragement. And really just, it's focused on meeting people. Where they are, because what happens in the system is they like to take an algorithm and say, okay, you're more likely to be worth our time, six months to the door, or you're more likely to be worth our time, 18 months to the door. But for the 10 years you're in, we'll just let you figure it out. And so there's so much more that can be done there, and we're just trying to leverage Waze and work with the DOC to figure it out. So, you know, get better opportunities and ways for us to get in there and provide stuff that maybe they can't. There are other organizations out here that have a way to do that, work with us. We can help, you know, so, yeah, that's, that's by and large, um, yeah. All calls other than properly placed attorney calls may be monitored and recorded. Ross, you give them a little leeway. Only reason I don't give them too much leeway is because they believe, I mean, you go to any institution, any man who wants to get this HSED. They go to a class. You have a tutor in that class. Who is that tutor? Nine times out of ten, it's another inmate. So, you have a math book, a reading book, a social skills book, whatever it is. That inmate is familiar with that. So any problems that an inmate in that class may have, they can help them with. So what's the difference between them, instead of saying, uh, we're going to handcuff this program, so you want to do this program, you've got to come and do this class. What's the difference between them taking a synopsis? of any program they have, placing it on, like here, unit one, you got a day room, all right? They close down some of the day rooms for school hours. So what's the difference between that, giving a man a book of a synopsis of a program, which is basic, uh, tools like we did over here when we was in the coping skills program. Giving that man a book, having it in a day room where they can come check out and read for themselves, just to get the basis of it. Just to get some of the synopsis of it, just to get what I would say the meat of it. To understand what that is because, true enough, you have a majority of men who are illiterate. Okay, let's be real. That's why they go to school. But you have some men also who are not illiterate. Use them as tutors, the same way you use when you go to education. You know, same way they do here when they shut down for school hours. They got men out in the day room helping men tutor in math. Well, if that's the case, you can also do that as well. Had time, had synopsis of some of the work. You ain't got to give it all to them, but give them something, give them some tools, give them something. You know what I mean? While they're doing the course of their incarceration. And I understand that they got limited resources, but the limited resources only extend to them. You can utilize the men that are incarcerated, which is what they're doing. And you know this loss. They are locked up. They still do it now. You have an older man like myself who's been locked up for 24 years. A young man comes into prison wild. What do they do? They sell them up with me. Why they sell them up with me? Because they want him to learn the ropes, how to conduct themselves and how to act in prison. They do. They do it anyway. They do it anyway. We don't have four altercations here. What he kept doing that they bringing guys in from Perry Duchene. That's young. They put them in the cell with seasoned men, men who've incarcerated minutes. who's changed their lives, who's better themselves and put them in the room with them because their idea is okay. He can mentor that that young man and how to do time. They do it anyway. So I don't give him too much leeway on that. You know what I mean? Because they've been doing it since the beginning of time, since some of the prison system has been open. When you have men like myself, they put a young guy in here. We're gonna put him in there. You can show him the ropes, how to do time, how to conduct themselves. They do it anyway. So, uh, uh, I would give them, like, you probably give them 60, 70 percent, I'll give them 30. So, no, I 100 percent agree with you there. They need to, you know, open up and be more flexible to let other people who have those resources and that know how come in and do what they can't do everything. Um, and I guess I'm trying to work with them to see if they, you know, can get that going. Um, so you talked about coping skills, right? So, this is where, this is where I learned, you know, Uh, that you are one of the best people that I met in my life. And so, what I want you to talk about, just for yourself, maybe coping skills might not be it, but, what have you achieved in prison, and what are you proud of? Okay, uh, alright. Oh, uh, what I achieved while I was in prison, well, I achieved, uh, My, uh, I achieved, one thing I'm proud of is that I was able to achieve my mental health, my emotional health, and, and my physical health. My mental and emotional health was the most important thing because that's what determined, I believe, the maturity of a man. If you're in control of your mental, uh, your mental health and your emotional health, that's what will make you a more productive individual, you know, because I wasn't in control of that. You know what I mean? And, uh, after achieving that, that's when I told you I had to go learn about anger management, learn about depression, anxiety, and all that. That's what strengthened my, my mental and emotional health. And then getting, getting in, getting around. Um, older and mature men who did a lot of time and listening to him, sitting down and actually listening to him. Versus when I came into prison, you know how we had hot head, think we know everything. But, we're also afraid because you know that ethos that goes into when you get incarcerated, look for the biggest baddest dude, take him out so you can be tough and, you know what I'm saying, everybody won't bother you, you know. And protect, and protect yourself because you're in a jungle, you know what I mean. So. That's what I'm proud of. Uh, and also achieving my HSED, achieving and going to school, and receiving a higher degree in vocational. I received a vocational in Microsoft Office. Okay. And then, uh, the thing I'm most proud of is that All those accomplishments, you know, everything that I achieved, I was able to go on to this Christian college and receive a degree in Biblical studies. And receiving that degree, that, that was, that was a college, a college setting for me. You know, cause at first I was like, I don't think I can do that to a college. Cause when I got locked up, I had a third grade reading level along with a sixth grade math level. And here it is now. I got my HSED in prison. I achieved a vocational in prison, but that's a prison setting, you know. Then in prison, be like, okay, I did that while I'm in prison. But then I went outside of the prison, got hooked up with this school that, you know, our friend, your old cellmate Rick Conception went to. And when I applied for it and they accepted me, listen, that was, that was college work that I was doing. And I was, at first I was nervous. I'm like, man, I wonder if I can really do it. This is the different zones right here. And as I start doing the material, I'm like, I can do this. Yeah, this, this, this, okay, okay, I can do this and stuff. I didn't know that I didn't fully understand. I had the mental fortitude to say, okay, I don't understand this. Instead of being an arrogant butthole thinking, well, I don't like this. Like I did when I was immature. When I was immature emotionally and mentally, I was like, oh, I don't want to do this. Forget this. I'll just, I'll just, I'll just quit, you know, but I was like, no. Uh, when I got my HSD, I did my vocational and then when even working out, I know that self takes time and it takes effort. And I had to learn that being incarcerated. And I learned that by, by maturing. And as I was doing it, I'm like, okay, I just got to buckle down. I got to be focused. I got to be disciplined. Which is what I learned, uh, achieving from developing my mental and my emotional, uh, uh, state of mind to be a mature man. And once I did that, I, I applied that now, I apply all that to every aspect of my life. But that came from me learning those key principles of, of those coping skills that, that, that's a key point into my life and a key point to any man or any woman's life. Learning, learning principles for your mental and your emotional state. So I'm like, let me sit down. Let me get rid of these nagging thoughts telling me I can't do this because I can't. Okay, let me quiet my mind. Let me do a slight meditation. Do a slight meditation other than properly placed. Attorney calls may be monitored and recorded and reread the materials. And when I reread it, I'm like, okay, there's the basis of it. That's the understanding of this paragraph or this story, you know, and, uh, and when I see that because I'm only one book away. And I'm waiting for it, because it's 20 books I had to do, and I've been in it for, uh, two years now, you know. And I got one more book to come to me, and I do my thesis on that, answer my questions, and I have my degree. And from that point on, I go into, uh, Christian counseling. That's what I'm proud of right there. And also, I may add, a milestone was developing the Path of Freedom program with a gentleman who, who, who's, uh, who's, uh, I'm gonna mention his name, Ross Shannon. Help me. We developed a program here at Stanley. The first coping skills program in Stanley for incarcerated men with material that relates to incarcerated men that, uh, that understand the plight of being incarcerated. And this program we started in 2013 is successful to this day. That they even took the program and they started it at a mental health facility here in Wisconsin. That's how successful that has been. And that came from, uh, the help of Ross Shannon, who found the material. And me and him put the program together. I'm proud of that. That's what I'm proud of as well to say that I had a hand in that along with working with my counterpart, Ross Shannon. I'm proud of that as well. You know, I, whenever I bring up the program, uh, in like just mentioning for like, Resume or a CV is another version of a resume out here that people ask for, um, or just talking about it in like a product podcast. I always mention you, I never say like I did this, I did, I always did it with Yale or, and um, and so it's, it's interesting though how, you know, I think we both consider that a, an achievement in, in as much as that term can be applied to something, but how the system turned it from something that we were really proud of initially and all the work we put into it. So now it's, uh, we've talked about this before, now it's a very cookie cutter approach that they have because it's easier for them to use that path of freedom, which, you know, was a gift and a curse at first. You were like, oh, this is a great program, and then they took over and that's all it is now. Um, but it, uh, it's just interesting how, how that came about in the end. But, um, I agree. I mean, that was very much Uh, something for me that, uh, was It is I have said this before in the I wrote this article for the Boston Review about my experience getting my degree in prison and how the time, the two years I spent during the Coping Skills Program reading all those books we did and putting all the literature together and doing all the research. Designing it so that every, every day there was different things and every week there was different things and communicating with the guys in the lab and how we connect to the, to the group meetings. We did all this and the frustrations were trying to get the staff there to go along with how we had set it up and they would want to come in and just go vogue. And just do my own thing and not really pay attention to how we just talked about like why but with all of that, that was the most gratifying and peaceful time of my incarceration. Um, because I was just engrossed in mental health work and just my own focus on like meditation and mindfulness and my own stuff. So, yeah, that was easily the best time. Let me say this as well, is that you were an inspiration to me as well, Ross. I paid attention to when we put the program together. I didn't have anything going on. But you, you were going to school. That's when you get that, that business, administrators. What was that, that degree in Chippewa, Chippewa Valley College? No, it was, uh, it ended up being from Adams State, but I used nine total schools to find Okay, but, but you were doing that along with doing that program, bro. Yeah. I mean, that was a lot of work, man. That's why I had to get my butt in high gear. You know? I'm like, this young man is going to college. When I fully understood what you was doing, I'm like, he's going to college and he's helping us put this together. Okay, let me, let me, okay, let me get my mind right. You know? And then, you also pushed, I'm like, if he can do two things. No, you were doing three things. Yeah. You was doing that. And then, I remember, I remember you like, look man, I'm putting an outline together for the community, the newsletter. Remember that? Yeah. You were doing three things, you had three projects going on, bro. And you accomplished them. So I have no excuse, none whatsoever, of why I can't improve myself or be better for, not only for myself, but for those around me. That's the one, number one thing as well. Doing right and being good, not only for myself, but those around me. Because if my environment and those who I hang around with are good, I'm good. You know, I'm good. And that's where, uh, uh, uh, empathy comes in. I had to learn that. I had to learn compassion. I had to learn that. How else would I function in society? I was when I functioned without it, without those three, those, those two key aspects in my character. Don't nobody want to be around somebody who's not, who don't, uh, have those characteristics? You'd be a loner. You'd be brushed off. You'd be announced. You know what I mean? So, yeah. I'm proud of those things. And I will say that, I mean, I, in what you just said about me, I feel the same if not stronger about my experience with you. Is that you are so sincere, so humble, so down to earth, and just, you know, want the best for people that, um, I have been through. Time and time again, just inspired by your example and how you do your time. Just the fact that the way you talk right now with how much you, how long you've been in, and how much time you have left. And to have people, this is kind of what I want people out there to know who, uh, because the podcast is for people that are in this work more than it's for people that are just in general society. I mean, I want both to listen. We try, we're trying to get it, you know, more popular in that regard, but it's, it's basically, I want people both in the work and. It turns out in society to see the types of individuals that we're keeping incarcerated and all the good they could do out in society and how they have a better perspective and frame of mind than 90 percent of people that are in society. And why would you want to keep that away from society? All the pain and difficulties that people have out here. And you have healers like yourself. Who get it, that are just kept from, like, why does that make sense? Why are we doing this? So, yeah, that's exactly what I want to, you know, hold up as people, like the example that you bring, beautifully. Um, so before we fall down too far in this bromance, uh, let's get to the, to the next question. Um, what do you want from life after prison? It could be anything, whether it's a specific job, family, just plain old freedom, but whatever you want. What is it? Okay, well, um, what do I want after prison? Well, this is what I want.'cause you know, I'm a, I'm a man of faith. I want God's will. Following him is what made me the man I am today. Walking with God, I was able to encounter miracles, blessings. I felt hope. Truth. And love, that's why I say the Course, because I realized that this power is real. I felt them in my life, observed them in my life, saw it in other men's and women's life as well. So, after experiencing that, and after, after learning the real truth of what love is, what truth is, what hope feels like, what a blessing is, and how to bless others, and what a miracle is, and seeing it come into fruition for the past 15 years, that's when I gave my life to them. I know that he's real. So what do I want after prison? I want his will. Because when I walked alone, the only thing I encountered when I walked by myself was the opposite of all that. I encountered misfortune. I encountered destruction. I encountered lies. I felt hatred. and pain and misery walking alone, myself doing my will. But with his, it was the opposite. I encountered miracles, blessings, truth, hope and love. So when I step out, I want to continue that. I want to continue to do his will because doing a higher power will God's will. That's what I encountered to now. I'm gonna have roadblocks. But with this higher power of my life, he got me past so many roadblocks while I was incarcerated. You know, strong like iron, strong like a diamond, you know, and it shines bright like a diamond as Rihanna says. But yes, I want his will and I, and that's what I will continue to do because I've encountered blessing after blessing. Okay. I encountered truth. I encountered love from all of this. And I know when I step out on the street that if I continue to do his will, get around men and women of like mind or even men who don't have women who don't have the like mindedness. I'll be, I'll be prepared, which God has prepared me, mentally, physically, and emotionally to deal with those people because I've matured. There's one thing I always tell people, men who have been incarcerated for a long period of time. They are not the same man or woman they were when they entered the prison, when they've been incarcerated for a long period of time. Either you got worse throughout that long period of time, or you got better during that long course of time. Just like I told PRC, I seen PRC, they wanted to give me, I'm thinking for a change group, which I understood. I told that, I told the PRC lady, I said, listen, I haven't received a conduct report in nine to ten years. You shouldn't be offering me a program. You should be asking me, Clay, what have you done that kept you out of trouble? That kept you working, developing this work habit, because I've had a job ever since I've been incarcerated, developing a work habit. They should be asking that instead of saying, well, sure, you tell the men you had a ticket in 20 years. So we're going to give you a program. No, you need to sit down and ask that man. Okay. What have you done, sir, to maintain yourself in this, in this structured environment, but we are surrounded by it. The worst or the worst. So what have you done? What was it that helped you get through being incarcerated all the time? Yeah. That encompasses the, uh, the two jobs that I found myself always engrossed in. It was always to help and mentor, uh, men to be better men while they're incarcerated and pointing them to, uh, to educate themselves, to, uh, seek employment. And also for myself, for myself, is I want to get out. Get employment, get housing, and then from that point on, just live life. That's why I developed my mental, my emotional, and my physical state of being, because I want to get out and live for another, another 20 years, and then live, live that life as a man who's in, in tune in who he is and what his responsibilities are. Uh, I achieve goals so I know how to, uh, uh, aspire for more goals and how to achieve them. I want to get out and be, and live and be a productive man to society. Not only am I getting out to live and enjoy life, but also I want to get out and live and be productive for society. Because, uh, because in order for me to have a good life, that's what I have to do. I have to be productive in the environment where I'm at. You know what I mean? I don't want to be one of those complaining about woes. I want to be one of those stepping out helping to, uh, free the minds of imprisoned individuals. The last question is, what are you doing now to, you know, not prepare, but just like, what are you working on now? Okay. Right. Well, like I said, I'm waiting on my next book that I can complete and get my degree in biblical studies. And then I'm gonna go on into, uh, get a degree in Christian counseling and, uh, and what I'm working on now and I'm, I'm constantly working on and keeping up and developing my work ethic.'cause you know, that's one important thing as far as when you get out. Men need to have that work ethic. That's why I took all Zandra of jobs. I took jobs working in the morning and work all day or I took jobs working in the afternoon, working all day, just preparing myself that if that time comes, I can take any job working in any position, wherever they held. I work at a McDonald's, you know, I work cleaning floors, whatever it is, right? I know with my work ethic, wherever I go to, I'll advance to wherever it is. But that's one thing. I want to develop my work ethic. I want to develop, that's why I stay working out. I want to keep my body in shape. And I stay reading. Hey, matter of fact, I picked up your old book, uh, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I picked that back up and reread that. I'm rereading through that again. I love that book. You know, and Choice Theory. You remember Choice Theory? Been so long you probably don't, but yeah, I'm picking them up and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm re uh, I'm re reading all, all the old books that I read back that I used to help develop myself, just retooling myself and everything. But yeah, that's what I'm doing right now. That's, that's beautiful because a lot of times, and I'm guilty of this myself, is we get wrapped up in trying to do things and trying to start things and learn this stuff that we don't kind of go back to the basics. And. Yep, yep, yep. Exactly. You know, just the fundamentals of how we could do this life peacefully. You know. So, no, no, that's as good as anything. Going back to the basics, though. Yeah. Well, Chuckie, Chuckie boy, it's been, uh, great taking 19 calls to get this interview done. And, uh, Ross, thank you so much for the opportunity. I surely appreciate it. And brother, I appreciate the hard work that you're doing too. And what you're doing. Keep doing what you're doing. Well, Ross, I got one minute, bro. Thank you so much. Oh, the CO giving me the go. Okay. Love. They finna serve, oh they servin lunch. I gotta go. Heh heh. Yeah, go, go get this cut your zini. Alright. Yeah. That's how, that's how you do me, huh? That's how you do me. Heh heh. Heh heh. Love, bro. I said it in the intro, I said it during our conversation, and I'll say it many more times throughout my life. Chuck is one of the best people I have ever met. A person whose character has passed the test time after time in an environment as difficult and testing as prison should be out here leading people, not spending years more in prison after already serving 25. It simply serves no purpose, and doesn't have to happen. And yes, Chuck's character is uncommon inside, but so is it out here in society. The point is what Chuck represents. A system that makes lost and fractured souls find their own way, and more often disregards those that figure it out without the system's conveyor belt solutions. Chuck's commentary on the backwardness of offering programs only to those when they get close to the door is an incredibly frequent and avoidable problem in the prison system. I don't know how it is in every state. But in Wisconsin, the obstacles put in the way of incarcerated healers and mentors to share their strengths and knowledge with those struggling all around them out of myopic security concerns is emblematic of the penny wise and pound foolish approach of the entire system. The current approach implies it can prevent issues through deprivation and code structure. But this is what I refer to as the 90 10 rule. Many policies in the DOC or on community supervision seek to limit or eliminate bad actors. drugs, violence, exploitation, etc. But in reality, they much more often only inconvenience the 10 percent that take ill advantage of opportunities, while inconveniencing or significantly harming the 90 percent that are not a threat, while the dangerous 10 percent will find another way to achieve their goals anyways. It removes and misses out on the multiplier effect. This is what's known in economics as a Laffer Curve. Restrictions have a place in time, but when imposed too much, they begin to hurt your goal more rather than help. When Chuck and I were the first two people hired to facilitate the brand new mental health program we talked about called Coping Skills, we were hired by another stand up human being who understood this. Dr. Fry let me and Chuck design, implement, and manage the vast majority of the program. He understood that putting trust in us to connect with the men weighed out far more than the risk that we would take advantage of the position and freedom it gave us in the institution. Anything bad we would have done in that role, we could have found a way to do outside of it. But little of the good we did could have been done without his trust. And that freedom he gave us allowed us to grow as men and healers with exponential potential. It's actually so obvious it's absurd. Freedom keeps you safer than control. Exceptions exist, of course, but the arc bends much more toward giving people the ability to discover and share their gifts, not dictate their paths. Chuck also mentions several books he is reading. One was Houses of Healing, which is a well known program and book in many jails and prisons across the country. The premise is simple and universal for not only people with criminal records, but so many in society. Inside us is a hurt child who never got what they need. And their adult self will suffer and harm others until that neglect is addressed. And those like Chuck are the best ones to help us get there. Thank you for listening. Peace.